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Rob wrote:Hey Egan, what international events will a world class 25,000 seat stadium attract?
I can think of maybe a socceroos game against Laos or Nepal. Perhaps the Wallabies vs some pissant pacific island. Both of which are worth about $3.45 to the WA economy.
Should West Australians be deprived of watching the Socceroos because our government are a bunch of tight-asses when it comes to stadium?
As Pyne said last night "If everything was done on a guranteed cost return, we wouldn't have government".
And the problem with using some qualitative instrument to allocate capital is... the exact same problem if you used a quantitative instrument. A whole lot of investments / special interests competing for your capital, and a decision to make. Slapping 'social' all over something doesn't make it free. A multicultural festival will attract more people than the west coast eagles, it will include a greater cross section of society, and it will last longer than 2 hours - At 1/600th the price. And guess what Deags! It's 'social' too!
It really doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you spend $250 million on a rectangular stadium and it's only ever used to its full capacity once, then effectively that socceroos game cost $250 million. Yeah, there's a few economic multipliers involved in construction. Problem being you could get the same multiplier effect building a Woolworths - at 0 cost to the tax payer.
It really doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you spend $250 million on a rectangular stadium and it's only ever used to its full capacity once, then effectively that socceroos game cost $250 million. Yeah, there's a few economic multipliers involved in construction. Problem being you could get the same multiplier effect building a Woolworths - at 0 cost to the tax payer.
The problem is these arm chair fans telling people in Perth
Sit on sh*t seats that rock back and forward
Have medical facilities that are dilapadated
Have shitty lights
All because a state that can afford to upgrade, won't upgrade it. You have all these multi-cultural festivals, but you still need to bridge the gap. To suggest that MES should stay like it is for more than a few years speaks of arrogance for people who are used to better venues.
Again there is a view that it doesn't matter whether you have a sh*t venue or a good venue, you will get the same amount of people coming through the gate.
Absolutely no reason to maintain a view that WA deserves to watch sporting events in sh*t hole. Maybe living in Canberra Yob has delivered you a more pragmatic viewing of this.
But both Subiaco Oval and MES are vital developments. You disagree. Again we are not going to get a consensus view. Democracy in action!
Movie theaters don't make a cent. Ticket sales go to the studios. Cinema chains pay for management rights, and may make some cash on commission from the mall and advertisers and keep the proceeds from the candy bar. The loss making multi million dollar exercise of building 25 cinemas is the mall operator's. Funny that - it's possible to apply a quantitative value to something not necessarily based on turnover, but on the value it adds to other areas of your enterprise. Westfield loses fist fulls on the cinema, but just having it in their mall allows them to charge higher rents everywhere else in the complex. Oh, and going to the movies is social too.
There's ways to fund infrastructure that don't involve the state taxing incomes or selling bonds.
yob wrote:Movie theaters don't make a cent. Ticket sales go to the studios. Cinema chains pay for management rights, and may make some cash on commission from the mall and advertisers and keep the proceeds from the candy bar. The loss making multi million dollar exercise of building 25 cinemas is the mall operator's. Funny that - it's possible to apply a quantitative value to something not necessarily based on turnover, but on the value it adds to other areas of your enterprise. Westfield loses fist fulls on the cinema, but just having it in their mall allows them to charge higher rents everywhere else in the complex. Oh, and going to the movies is social too.
There's ways to fund infrastructure that don't involve the state taxing incomes or selling bonds.
Heck I am in support of any initiative such as using the private capital to redevelop venues. The issue is the venues have to be redeveloped into the future. Whether its tommorow or in 50 years time.
Stand have a limited useful life
Society changes/getting fatter and taller
There is also an argument by many that in the globalised world, cities and their infrastructure are important facets in keeping talent and skills in the city. By not having modern world class stadium, you have less of an incentive for people to stay in Perth and you continue the brain drain.
Rob wrote:Hey Egan, what international events will a world class 25,000 seat stadium attract?
I can think of maybe a socceroos game against Laos or Nepal. Perhaps the Wallabies vs some pissant pacific island. Both of which are worth about $3.45 to the WA economy.
Should West Australians be deprived of watching the Socceroos because our government are a bunch of tight-asses when it comes to stadium?
As Pyne said last night "If everything was done on a guranteed cost return, we wouldn't have government".
The twits within WA Government should learn that.
That doesn't mean it's justifiable - you could make the same argument for every project ever proposed.
At least with Stadium WA we'd have a chance of attracting genuinely decent international events - Bledisloe Cup, Relevant socceroos internationals, or one off events like world athletics championships or world 20/20 championships.
Egan wrote:There is also an argument by many that in the globalised world, cities and their infrastructure are important facets in keeping talent and skills in the city. By not having modern world class stadium, you have less of an incentive for people to stay in Perth and you continue the brain drain.
Must be a popular argument amongst pseudo economists that don't understand zero-sum theory.
Rob wrote:
That doesn't mean it's justifiable - you could make the same argument for every project ever proposed.
At least with Stadium WA we'd have a chance of attracting genuinely decent international events - Bledisloe Cup, Relevant socceroos internationals, or one off events like world athletics championships or world 20/20 championships.
I believe both venues are justifiable...
Must be a popular argument amongst pseudo economists that don't understand zero-sum theory.
Or choose not to believe that the whole world is defined in dollar form. Beauty of human kind, people can be obsessed with the dollar value. Or others are interested in developing infrastructure that the state can afford to be a more livable city into the 21st century.
For me there is no reason why Perth should continue to be a laughing stock in terms of shitty venues. But obviously Yob you should move over here, the government follow your line of argument in terms of stadiums.
Also if you look at the Caketin, 2 million dollar profit a year!
Rob wrote:
That doesn't mean it's justifiable - you could make the same argument for every project ever proposed.
At least with Stadium WA we'd have a chance of attracting genuinely decent international events - Bledisloe Cup, Relevant socceroos internationals, or one off events like world athletics championships or world 20/20 championships.
I believe both venues are justifiable...
Must be a popular argument amongst pseudo economists that don't understand zero-sum theory.
Or choose not to believe that the whole world is defined in dollar form. Beauty of human kind, people can be obsessed with the dollar value. Or others are interested in developing infrastructure that the state can afford to be a more livable city into the 21st century.
For me there is no reason why Perth should continue to be a laughing stock in terms of shitty venues. But obviously Yob you should move over here, the government follow your line of argument in terms of stadiums.
Also if you look at the Caketin, 2 million dollar profit a year!
Strip the WAFC of rights, tell Force, Soccer that they will build the billion dollar venue. Keep glory at MES, force can go to new stadium with retractable seating. There is no reason with even more events that Perth's billion dollar stadium can't earn $4 million a year.
Rob wrote:
That doesn't mean it's justifiable - you could make the same argument for every project ever proposed.
At least with Stadium WA we'd have a chance of attracting genuinely decent international events - Bledisloe Cup, Relevant socceroos internationals, or one off events like world athletics championships or world 20/20 championships.
I believe both venues are justifiable...
I'm not actually saying it's not. But IMO there would seem to be far higher priorities when it comes to entertainment infrastructure. Admittedly, the $90 million 500 seat Heath Ledger theatre shouldn't have been one of them.
Rob wrote:
I'm not actually saying it's not. But IMO there would seem to be far higher priorities when it comes to entertainment infrastructure. Admittedly, the $90 million 500 seat Heath Ledger theatre shouldn't have been one of them.
What do we have left to build after stadiums?
As you said the Arts have Heath Ledger Facility to add to other venues that had the luxury of being constructed straight away, unlike the major venue.
My priority is to build the Labor Government multi-purpose venue, if that happens we can also deliver a minor upgrade for Perth Glory. Just to get the venue up to scratch in terms of medical facilities etc etc...
I think that both an upgraded MES and a Stadium WA are viable and necessary. It would give WA a stadium hierarchy for both oval and rectangular sports?
Glory, Force, WA Reds Home and away matches - MES fits the bill.
Socceroos, Wallabies, International Rules, Dockers/Eagles homes and away - Stadium WA is your venue
WAFL Home and Away - take your pick
What higher priority entertainment infrastructure? new theatre is almost complete, ditto Basketball, Athletics, Perth Arena
Egan wrote:Or choose not to believe that the whole world is defined in dollar form. Beauty of human kind, people can be obsessed with the dollar value. Or others are interested in developing infrastructure that the state can afford to be a more livable city into the 21st century.
Yep because 'social' things don't cost money. Mr Oppositional Defiance Disorder strikes again!
yob wrote:
Yep because 'social' things don't cost money. Mr Oppositional Defiance Disorder strikes again!
Social things cost money
A state such as WA has enough money to upgrade their venues while also supporting other 'social' costs. To suggest that West Australians should suffer with shitty venues, that breach safety standards is an obcession to only deliver on social needs when the venues are literally collapsing on top of people.
Like I said move to WA if you are in such support of the WA Government's policy on stadium funding.
Mr Oppositional Defiance Disorder strikes again!