Beginning of the end for suburban NRL stadiums?

[Boba Fett]

If you're purely concerned with moving people in and out of a stadium as quickly as possible, your argument is very strong. Parramatta Stadium is certainly walkable, but at about 20mins its not ideal.

But the big advantage of the current location of Parramatta Stadium is its proximity to all the restaurants, cafes and pubs in between the station and the ground. So if people want to eat and/or drink before and/or after the game there are plenty of options. Parramatta as a whole is a proper destination hub, unlike most greenfield suggestions. It's long been a criticism of ANZ Stadium - that it's stuck out in the middle of nowhere without any eating and drinking options. Initially that was a fair criticism, but it's starting to improve now that more infrastructure is being build as part of the Olympic Park masterplan.

Any location will have its pros and cons, but to my thinking Parramatta Stadium provides the best option as to providing a good stadium for Western Sydney. The other thing is that Parramatta City is starting to set itself up as a real alternative to the Sydney CBD with some pretty tall skyscrapers and other developments. A proper stadium redevelopment would complement this nicely.

[gyfox]

If you're purely concerned with moving people in and out of a stadium as quickly as possible, your argument is very strong. Parramatta Stadium is certainly walkable, but at about 20mins its not ideal.

But the big advantage of the current location of Parramatta Stadium is its proximity to all the restaurants, cafes and pubs in between the station and the ground. So if people want to eat and/or drink before and/or after the game there are plenty of options. Parramatta as a whole is a proper destination hub, unlike most greenfield suggestions. It's long been a criticism of ANZ Stadium - that it's stuck out in the middle of nowhere without any eating and drinking options. Initially that was a fair criticism, but it's starting to improve now that more infrastructure is being build as part of the Olympic Park masterplan.

Any location will have its pros and cons, but to my thinking Parramatta Stadium provides the best option as to providing a good stadium for Western Sydney. The other thing is that Parramatta City is starting to set itself up as a real alternative to the Sydney CBD with some pretty tall skyscrapers and other developments. A proper stadium redevelopment would complement this nicely.

The proximity to restaurants etc is one of the stadium strategy's criteria as well and in that sense Parramatta is ideal. Its also a reason I looked for an alternative site to BSIP in Blacktown. BSIP has long been the bureaucracies favourite but it doesn't have what is needed for a stadium site these days. There is a study done for a regional stadium in Belfast that showed that an in town site had an economic multiplier much greater than a greenfields site simply due to the connection with the entertainment and food scene.

[St James]

If you're purely concerned with moving people in and out of a stadium as quickly as possible, your argument is very strong. Parramatta Stadium is certainly walkable, but at about 20mins its not ideal.

But the big advantage of the current location of Parramatta Stadium is its proximity to all the restaurants, cafes and pubs in between the station and the ground. So if people want to eat and/or drink before and/or after the game there are plenty of options. Parramatta as a whole is a proper destination hub, unlike most greenfield suggestions. It's long been a criticism of ANZ Stadium - that it's stuck out in the middle of nowhere without any eating and drinking options. Initially that was a fair criticism, but it's starting to improve now that more infrastructure is being build as part of the Olympic Park masterplan.

Any location will have its pros and cons, but to my thinking Parramatta Stadium provides the best option as to providing a good stadium for Western Sydney. The other thing is that Parramatta City is starting to set itself up as a real alternative to the Sydney CBD with some pretty tall skyscrapers and other developments. A proper stadium redevelopment would complement this nicely.

There is a study done for a regional stadium in Belfast that showed that an in town site had an economic multiplier much greater than a greenfields site simply due to the connection with the entertainment and food scene.

And that is why Parramatta Stadium should be the location of choice. The 1.5 km walk from the station is enhanced by the social scene provided along the way. The SCG/Allianz is a great social day for the same reason. You walk past pub after pub along the way, and Surrey Hills is a big foodie destination nowadays.
The shuttle bus concern at Parramatta would be easily fixed. Wilde Ave then Victoria Rd provide direct access to the front door.

St James.

[gyfox]

If you're purely concerned with moving people in and out of a stadium as quickly as possible, your argument is very strong. Parramatta Stadium is certainly walkable, but at about 20mins its not ideal.

But the big advantage of the current location of Parramatta Stadium is its proximity to all the restaurants, cafes and pubs in between the station and the ground. So if people want to eat and/or drink before and/or after the game there are plenty of options. Parramatta as a whole is a proper destination hub, unlike most greenfield suggestions. It's long been a criticism of ANZ Stadium - that it's stuck out in the middle of nowhere without any eating and drinking options. Initially that was a fair criticism, but it's starting to improve now that more infrastructure is being build as part of the Olympic Park masterplan.

Any location will have its pros and cons, but to my thinking Parramatta Stadium provides the best option as to providing a good stadium for Western Sydney. The other thing is that Parramatta City is starting to set itself up as a real alternative to the Sydney CBD with some pretty tall skyscrapers and other developments. A proper stadium redevelopment would complement this nicely.

There is a study done for a regional stadium in Belfast that showed that an in town site had an economic multiplier much greater than a greenfields site simply due to the connection with the entertainment and food scene.

And that is why Parramatta Stadium should be the location of choice. The 1.5 km walk from the station is enhanced by the social scene provided along the way. The SCG/Allianz is a great social day for the same reason. You walk past pub after pub along the way, and Surrey Hills is a big foodie destination nowadays.
The shuttle bus concern at Parramatta would be easily fixed. Wilde Ave then Victoria Rd provide direct access to the front door.

St James.

And what are you proposing for South West Sydney? "Beam them over Spock"? Travel time to the SFS is less than to Parramatta Stadium but its still unacceptable.

[St James]

Any location will have its pros and cons, but to my thinking Parramatta Stadium provides the best option as to providing a good stadium for Western Sydney. The other thing is that Parramatta City is starting to set itself up as a real alternative to the Sydney CBD with some pretty tall skyscrapers and other developments. A proper stadium redevelopment would complement this nicely.

There is a study done for a regional stadium in Belfast that showed that an in town site had an economic multiplier much greater than a greenfields site simply due to the connection with the entertainment and food scene.

And that is why Parramatta Stadium should be the location of choice. The 1.5 km walk from the station is enhanced by the social scene provided along the way. The SCG/Allianz is a great social day for the same reason. You walk past pub after pub along the way, and Surrey Hills is a big foodie destination nowadays.
The shuttle bus concern at Parramatta would be easily fixed. Wilde Ave then Victoria Rd provide direct access to the front door.

St James.

And what are you proposing for South West Sydney? "Beam them over Spock"? Travel time to the SFS is less than to Parramatta Stadium but its still unacceptable.[/quote]


I'm not proposing anything for the south west, yet.
When they can promise to support a tier 2 stadium that hosts more than 10-12 decent events a year, it might be worth considering.
Don't want to argue with you, but travel time from Campbelltown to Allianz is quicker than Campbelltown to Parra? Hmmm.

[gyfox]

And what are you proposing for South West Sydney? "Beam them over Spock"? Travel time to the SFS is less than to Parramatta Stadium but its still unacceptable.

I'm not proposing anything for the south west, yet.
When they can promise to support a tier 2 stadium that hosts more than 10-12 decent events a year, it might be worth considering.
Don't want to argue with you, but travel time from Campbelltown to Allianz is quicker than Campbelltown to Parra? Hmmm.

The problem is that the Stadia Strategy covers population growth through to 2036 and there is nowhere within Western Sydney where a stadium can be sited that has acceptable travel time to all parts of the region. The particular issue is South West Sydney which has a population of 450k now and 950k then where about 75% of the population would have excessive travel time to Parramatta and worse to anywhere on the Western rail line.

Express train from Campbelltown to Central is 61 minutes. Time to Parramatta is the same because of the train change at Granville. You can leave home about 10 minutes later going to Allianz because trains leave every 15 minutes while to Granville they leave every half hour.

In my view the strategy is poorly developed. The equity of the levels of service have not been thought through properly neither does there appear to be any consideration of the vitally important issue of atmosphere that drives attendance. While I accept the need for rationalisation it will only work optimally if the clubs play in stadiums that suit the size of their fan base. I find it interesting that they use my club Canterbury as their example of how it will work without any apparent understanding that if Belmore had been upgraded to say a 35k modern stadium their attendances would have grown much more than they have in their move to ANZ. Going to a modern stadium has grown their support. Playing in the right size modern stadium would have grown it more.

[Simmo79]

The problem Gyfox, is that your assessment "In my view the strategy is poorly developed. The equity of the levels of service have not been thought through properly neither does there appear to be any consideration of the vitally important issue of X" applies to practically every infrastructure plan that the NSW Govt has laid down for Sydney since the year dot. I understand where you're coming from but us stadium geeks have to join the queue because our complaints aren't a priority.

[gyfox]

The problem Gyfox, is that your assessment "In my view the strategy is poorly developed. The equity of the levels of service have not been thought through properly neither does there appear to be any consideration of the vitally important issue of X" applies to practically every infrastructure plan that the NSW Govt has laid down for Sydney since the year dot. I understand where you're coming from but us stadium geeks have to join the queue because our complaints aren't a priority.

I'm quite happy joining the queue its just that when stadiums get their share it needs to be spent equitably and on the right projects and to do that they need to have done their studies properly which they haven't in this case.

[NRLandMore]

I may be in the minority here but I love Stadium Australia.

Easy to get to by Public Transport and my seats are good viewing for Rugby League, Cricket & Rugby Union. They aren't bad for Soccer and pretty good for AFL.

The only place of the ground I hate being at is behind the post at a rectangle sport and if movable North and South stands are doable to bring it within 5 metres of the playing field and clear retractable roof, then in my opinion it would make it one of the best stadiums in Australia.

I think at times the venue is too harshly criticized.

Food there is sh*t though.

[kilonewton]

Wembley also cost twice as much as ANZ Stadium.

The facts are that it was delivered late, and that in my experience there is much more management required for UK contracts than Australian ones.
That is before you look at increased material prices and general inflation. Oh, and exchange rates. When they quoted Wembley costs in AUD, they were looking at 2.5/1. Now less than 1.5/1, so (spurious I know) if you were to look at the cost of Wembley now in AUD, all of a sudden it is far cheaper.

As to the location of Parramatta and distance to public transport etc., not having actually been there I can't comment with much authority, but one of my fellow students at uni looked at chaos theory and how it applies to crowds exiting a stadium after sporting events. Being in Melbourne, he looked at Melbourne stadia. The conclusion was that having a single transport node close to the stadium is a poor outcome as the crowd does not disperse. Anyone trying to get across the bridge at Docklands can attest to that. And anyone trying to get into Arsenal or Wembley Park tube stations or Cardiff Central can also attest to it. Multiple nodes like the MCG, or a more distant node which gives the crowd time to spread out is a better solution. Adding in restaurants / bars / other reasons to stop, reduces the pressure on the transport node.
The Olympic Park in London was a good example of this. Multiple nodes and bars / restaurants / shopping centre between the stadia and the main two nodes.

[St James]

Wembley also cost twice as much as ANZ Stadium.

The facts are that it was delivered late, and that in my experience there is much more management required for UK contracts than Australian ones.
That is before you look at increased material prices and general inflation. Oh, and exchange rates. When they quoted Wembley costs in AUD, they were looking at 2.5/1. Now less than 1.5/1, so (spurious I know) if you were to look at the cost of Wembley now in AUD, all of a sudden it is far cheaper.

As to the location of Parramatta and distance to public transport etc., not having actually been there I can't comment with much authority, but one of my fellow students at uni looked at chaos theory and how it applies to crowds exiting a stadium after sporting events. Being in Melbourne, he looked at Melbourne stadia. The conclusion was that having a single transport node close to the stadium is a poor outcome as the crowd does not disperse. Anyone trying to get across the bridge at Docklands can attest to that. And anyone trying to get into Arsenal or Wembley Park tube stations or Cardiff Central can also attest to it. Multiple nodes like the MCG, or a more distant node which gives the crowd time to spread out is a better solution. Adding in restaurants / bars / other reasons to stop, reduces the pressure on the transport node.
The Olympic Park in London was a good example of this. Multiple nodes and bars / restaurants / shopping centre between the stadia and the main two nodes.

Nope, an outlier like Campbelltown is a much better option. The crowd can disperse to all parts of the country from there.

Parramatta or bust imo.

[skippy]

Wembley also cost twice as much as ANZ Stadium.

The facts are that it was delivered late, and that in my experience there is much more management required for UK contracts than Australian ones.
That is before you look at increased material prices and general inflation. Oh, and exchange rates. When they quoted Wembley costs in AUD, they were looking at 2.5/1. Now less than 1.5/1, so (spurious I know) if you were to look at the cost of Wembley now in AUD, all of a sudden it is far cheaper.

As to the location of Parramatta and distance to public transport etc., not having actually been there I can't comment with much authority, but one of my fellow students at uni looked at chaos theory and how it applies to crowds exiting a stadium after sporting events. Being in Melbourne, he looked at Melbourne stadia. The conclusion was that having a single transport node close to the stadium is a poor outcome as the crowd does not disperse. Anyone trying to get across the bridge at Docklands can attest to that. And anyone trying to get into Arsenal or Wembley Park tube stations or Cardiff Central can also attest to it. Multiple nodes like the MCG, or a more distant node which gives the crowd time to spread out is a better solution. Adding in restaurants / bars / other reasons to stop, reduces the pressure on the transport node.
The Olympic Park in London was a good example of this. Multiple nodes and bars / restaurants / shopping centre between the stadia and the main two nodes.

Closer to home - Suncorp stadium is a good example. There was an outcry during the redevelopment when it was discovered there would be zero public parking, instead free public transport was to be provided to events. This turned out to be a master stroke. The crowds disperse in a number of different directions
- Milton rail station 5 mins south west
- Bus station 2 mins under southern concourse
- Milton bars and XXXX Brewery 5 mins west
- Paddington pubs, cafes and restaurants 5 mins north west
- Caxton St pubs and restaurants 5 mins north east
- Roma St rail station and Brisbane CBD 10 mins east

The stadium has been the catalyst for the Barracks urban development (cinema, bars, restaurants) being in the middle of the pedestrian link from the stadium to the CBD.

[Timbo]

There's talk that the new stadium the NSW Government is looking to build at the expense of suburban grounds will be at either Penrith or Liverpool according to Terry Kennedy on Sky Sports Radio this morning.

Ridiculously, they're saying it will be mult-purpose to allow GWS to play there.

I am absolutely flabbergasted if true. How many stadiums do GWS want so they can play in front of 4,000 people and watch them get beaten by 100? They've already conned the NSW government out of a shocking amount of money to turn the showground into Skoda Stadium - which is, remember, accross the road from another stadium in ANZ which they could have used - this after having money spent on Blacktown as a training venue which they don't use. They've gotten the ACT Government to spend money on Manuka to increase capacity and add lights. And now they want to hijack the new stadium in the west designed for NRL and A-League?

This stadium could see as many as 44 rectangular matches a season (assuming full commitment from Penrith, Parramatta and WSW and half commitment from Wests) and the AFL and GWS want it to be multipurpose so they can play, what, 4 games there?

This is ridiculous. I did hear suggestions on the radio though that the NRL clubs would not commit unless it was a proper rectangle.

[Egan]

Someone is a big AFL supporter within the Public Sector of NSW...

Will people travel out to Penrith and Liverpool who are tourists, attracted for the event? These days sports is a key component on drawing tourists, an extra 50-60 million dollars for a central location can pay off with more tourists being drawn to the state for the event.

[Boba Fett]

There's talk that the new stadium the NSW Government is looking to build at the expense of suburban grounds will be at either Penrith or Liverpool according to Terry Kennedy on Sky Sports Radio this morning.

Ridiculously, they're saying it will be mult-purpose to allow GWS to play there.

I am absolutely flabbergasted if true. How many stadiums do GWS want so they can play in front of 4,000 people and watch them get beaten by 100? They've already conned the NSW government out of a shocking amount of money to turn the showground into Skoda Stadium - which is, remember, accross the road from another stadium in ANZ which they could have used - this after having money spent on Blacktown as a training venue which they don't use. They've gotten the ACT Government to spend money on Manuka to increase capacity and add lights. And now they want to hijack the new stadium in the west designed for NRL and A-League?

This stadium could see as many as 44 rectangular matches a season (assuming full commitment from Penrith, Parramatta and WSW and half commitment from Wests) and the AFL and GWS want it to be multipurpose so they can play, what, 4 games there?

This is ridiculous. I did hear suggestions on the radio though that the NRL clubs would not commit unless it was a proper rectangle.

Did TK provide any actual evidence that it will be multi-purpose? Or is it simply GWS/AFL bashing?