Proposed WACA Redevelopment

[beastjim]

Nah hes comparing Reds to the Force there. Problem with the comparison is that the Reds are the Glory of the Super 14. And the crowds reflect on field performance in this case.

Otherwise welcome sevens. Need more Qlders on this board

I certainly agree it has become the culture. You can't say the forced migration to PT has an influence on crowds. The redeveloped Suncorp and new Robina have basically been PT only from day 1 so it was PT or stay at home. The Gabba has seen the transition from more Car Based to Public Transport based over time, however they bought in the parking restrictions around the Gabba along with increased PT presence years ago certainly when the Gabba was rocking with much closer to full crowds for the Lions then currently being experienced. Still the back yards that are left in the are still charge $1-/15 to park in their if you desire or you have to know which spots you can park in.

Theres no doubting that parking a car near the venue is easier rob, but to cater for bigger crowds it has to be the PT squeeze. You get it in your ticket anyway, might as well use it. Better for the environment . You know save the Pandas, catch a bus to the game. Its another place to have some friendly banter as well.

[Egan]

I certainly agree it has become the culture. You can't say the forced migration to PT has an influence on crowds. The redeveloped Suncorp and new Robina have basically been PT only from day 1 so it was PT or stay at home. The Gabba has seen the transition from more Car Based to Public Transport based over time, however they bought in the parking restrictions around the Gabba along with increased PT presence years ago certainly when the Gabba was rocking with much closer to full crowds for the Lions then currently being experienced. Still the back yards that are left in the are still charge $1-/15 to park in their if you desire or you have to know which spots you can park in.

It is the culture. Public transport is free for Perth Glory games as well...$130 for gold concession seats plus public transport...

Still people insist on driving. Despite a train station outside the ground. It also helps when the state government has probably one of the best road networks out of any capital city, with no toll roads.

[Rob]

Hi everyone. new to austadiums. I've been reading a bit about your opinions on public transport and that. I've been to Suncorp stadium a couple of times when it was near capacity (50 000) which is much greater then what you get to subi. and i must say that the way the ground empties and people leave the ground is very efficeint. yes half the crowd does head off to caxton street wich is closed off, but there is no room for cars, so eerybody catches buses or trains. there is a bus station below the ground which has special transfers right around the city. and there are plenty of trains leaving milton going into the city and out. arriving to the ground is no problem as people seem to just catch the train at their own time, or take the ten minute walk from the city.

i have to say though i think it has a lot to do with the culture of attending games in queensland and nsw. ive been to the mcg, and was amazed by the amount of people who drove cars. i just thought y wouldnt u take a tram or train. but up here in queensland we only take public transport, taking ur car seems useless really.

That was essentially my point - not everyone wants to take public transport, so why force them to? You don't tell your customers what they want. Marketing 101.

I've never really understood this (probably idealogical) objection to people that want to drive to a sporting event. Building a facility with no parking is as ridiculous as building a facility with no public transport.

Although we may have some lower crowds then you in perth, we have catered for 52 000 events quite well.

And it absolutely shits me, given how rare it happens over there and how unlikely we are to get a decent bloody stadium over here.

sorry but i have to correct you there. most of our rugby matches are sell outs. so generally we get 50 000 +.

Whens the last time the Reds drew anything remotely like that? I doubt they ever have, let alone most games getting that.

[Simmo79]

i have to say though i think it has a lot to do with the culture of attending games in queensland and nsw. ive been to the mcg, and was amazed by the amount of people who drove cars. i just thought y wouldnt u take a tram or train. but up here in queensland we only take public transport, taking ur car seems useless really.

the number of PT users is proportionate to the number who are drunk at the footy. Which would be pretty high for Origin. Not so high for sports popular with families, chicks and grandmas.

[sevans]

Whens the last time the Reds drew anything remotely like that? I doubt they ever have, let alone most games getting that.

My apologies I misunderstood you, I thought you were talking about Wallabies test matches. Yes the Reds barely get anyone to their gamee.

Obviously there is a great divide in opinion about public transport. You guys over in Perth have probably never known any otherway of getting to a game other than driving, and thus th idea of public transport to you seems silly. We however in Queensland have no other option. There is NO parking any where near Suncorp so we have no other choice then to take the train, bus or walk.

The Bronos average over 30 000 to their home games, the highest in the NRL. Although we don't get consistent 40 000 plus like you do to Subi, we still get very decent crowds.

And it absolutely shits me, given how rare it happens over there and how unlikely we are to get a decent bloody stadium over here.

State of Origin, Broncos V Titans, Broncos V Cowboys, NRL Finals Wallabies Tests, Socceroos, RLWC, Kangaroos Tests, Concerts... all of these have attracted in excess of 50 000 people this year, so we do get sell out crowds on a farly regular basis.

To a slightly different point. I quite like the proposed design for the WACA. I am a bit of a traditionalist so I would prefer to see cricketstay thre. If you do ever get a new decent stadium, which I hope you do, then perhaps big ODIs and T20 can be played there. But keep the tests and Sheffield Shield and Ford Ranger games at the WACA I say.

[Egan]

That was essentially my point - not everyone wants to take public transport, so why force them to? You don't tell your customers what they want. Marketing 101.

.

You miss the point, in Brisbane they have made public transport easy access to get to the game and there has been no issue with it. Crowds have not dropped as the Brisbanites have said, there is no parking around these major stadiums.

There is no issue from customers. Public Transport usage has gone up.

The culture as noted by the forum members in Brisbane sees it as the way to go to Suncorp and Robina and there has been no stink as there would be in Perth.

Because Perth has one of the highest private car ownerships in the world. Putting your cultural context in Brisbane does not work, they have embraced it and has not had an detrimental effects on crowd.

WA has the same policies as Brisbane, but has failed to have it as effective. Maybe it is because the sheer size of crowds week in and week out, meaning those who do go are squashed.

I agree with the frustrations over nothing replacing Subiaco. It is a pain to watch sport at the ground. I hope Rudd builds us a major venue...

[Jeffles]

Public transport access to sporting events should not be about culture or force. Rob is right to say that a good venue will provide access for all types of commuters. Fact is, not everyone who attends sporting events lives near public transport and so private transport must be big part of the mix unless they change supply of PT to change the balance.

I think in this group of drivers there is an underlying demand for public transport but people will not take it because it is too far/takes too long or driving isn't enough of an inconvenience to move them onto PT.

At the same time, there are many public benefits with public transport that mean increased supply of public transport is a good thing. Without taking into consideration environmental factors and looking at it from the viewpoint of the citizen/spectator, PT takes up less space when moving commuters. This means lower costs, more efficient land use and less congestions on the roads.

I usually take PT to sporting events but I don't begrudge people that drive if that is a better option for them. Like PT generally, PT at sporting events will be used if people find it convenient, quick and clean compared to the other options.

Homebush Bay has an interesting mix. 10,000 paid car spots on the site. The maximum is $15 per car per day. People drive but they also get public transport in droves for big events. Why? PT is often put on for free, direct special event buses run to places where ordinary PT services do not run regularly and you can get from Olympic Park Station to Central within 25mins - good luck doing that in the car!

[Egan]

Public transport access to sporting events should not be about culture or force. Rob is right to say that a good venue will provide access for all types of commuters. Fact is, not everyone who attends sporting events lives near public transport and so private transport must be big part of the mix unless they change supply of PT to change the balance.

How can you explain one city in Brisbane having no discontent with the lack of car parking facilities at a venue, with no visible decrease in crowd. With a city that offers the same advantages, free public transport, had paid car parking, most people get fined every week. A quick and reliable system now going all the way from Mandurah.

And yet they still do not have people going by Public Transport anywhere near the levels of Brisbane.

There has to be some aspect of culture behind the issue.

[Simmo79]

How can you explain one city in Brisbane having no discontent with the lack of car parking facilities at a venue, with no visible decrease in crowd. With a city that offers the same advantages, free public transport, had paid car parking, most people get fined every week. A quick and reliable system now going all the way from Mandurah.

Fact is, not everyone who attends sporting events lives near public transport and so private transport must be big part of the mix unless they change supply of PT to change the balance.

I think in this group of drivers there is an underlying demand for public transport but people will not take it because it is too far/takes too long or driving isn't enough of an inconvenience to move them onto PT.

I wasn't kidding when I mentioned the BAC issue. I haven't been sober at the footy since Summer 2001.

[Rob]

Obviously there is a great divide in opinion about public transport. You guys over in Perth have probably never known any otherway of getting to a game other than driving, and thus th idea of public transport to you seems silly.

You misunderstand the Perth sporting culture, at least when it comes to games at Subiaco. A shitload of people do catch public transport - mainly rail. The crush at the end of the game at the train station nearby is massive. Buses are generally full.
It's just that there are many people that like to drive, such as myself. Most of the time I find it more convenient. And while if football moved to a ground with no parking I would continue to go, a lot of others, especially families, would simply think it's not worth the effort. Squeezing your kids into a train potentially can be frightening for parents, and I can understand why many would choose not to if that was their only option.

We however in Queensland have no other option. There is NO parking any where near Suncorp so we have no other choice then to take the train, bus or walk.

Which, back to my point, is fcuking ridiculous. It's like building a shopping centre with no carpark.

If you don't, then you lock out one part of the market.

The Bronos average over 30 000 to their home games, the highest in the NRL. Although we don't get consistent 40 000 plus like you do to Subi, we still get very decent crowds.

I guess we differ in our interpretation of what is a good crowd. For a city bigger than Perth, with far better stadium facilities, the Broncos and Lions draw relatively poorly.

I was just posing the question as to whether that has much to do with how hard their respective grounds are to get to.

State of Origin, Broncos V Titans, Broncos V Cowboys, NRL Finals Wallabies Tests, Socceroos, RLWC, Kangaroos Tests, Concerts... all of these have attracted in excess of 50 000 people this year, so we do get sell out crowds on a farly regular basis.

i.e one off events (and even then, many of what you mention haven't sold out). We fill Subiaco most weeks - 20 of the 22 AFL matches played in 2008 sold out. Yet while you guys get massive amounts of money spent on stadiums that don't get filled, we get dick.
Nothing against Queensland, but it shits me how we cop the government full of dickheads.

[Rob]

Public transport access to sporting events should not be about culture or force. Rob is right to say that a good venue will provide access for all types of commuters. Fact is, not everyone who attends sporting events lives near public transport and so private transport must be big part of the mix unless they change supply of PT to change the balance.

How can you explain one city in Brisbane having no discontent with the lack of car parking facilities at a venue, with no visible decrease in crowd.

No discontent? I would have thought empty seats are a good sign of that. Brisbane people do not show up to sport in the same numbers as Perth people do. There must be a reason why. Brisbane people watch sport on TV in greater numbers. It's not like Sydney, where crowds and TV ratings are poor to just about every sport.

And why would the crowds decrease? Unless they did have a stadium which was accessible which you could compare it to.

With a city that offers the same advantages, free public transport, had paid car parking, most people get fined every week. A quick and reliable system now going all the way from Mandurah.

Most people get fined? I drive most of the time and have never got fined. The thousands of cars that park around me have never got fined.
I'd be surprised if too many get fined nowadays. Everyone knows the rules.

And yet they still do not have people going by Public Transport anywhere near the levels of Brisbane.

There has to be some aspect of culture behind the issue.

Culture? Well yes. But that's like demolishing all Catholic churches in the city and then suggesting it's much more of a Protestant culture because all churchgoers are Protestant. If you give people one option, then the people that take it are going to make up 100% of the sample aren't they?

Could you suggest that the 20,000 empty seats at the average Broncos game and 15,000 at the average Lions game are all the people that would go if they could drive and get a parking spot within 15 minutes walk?

I just can't see why people have an obsession with forcing others into public transport. We don't live in a fundamentalist society. Give people the option, make it more attractive by including it in the price of the ticket, whatever. But don't be a nazi about it.

[Jeffles]

I just can't see why people have an obsession with forcing others into public transport.

There are the public benefits I outlined above but you when you go on and say...

We don't live in a fundamentalist society. Give people the option, make it more attractive by including it in the price of the ticket, whatever. But don't be a nazi about it.

Exactly.

[broncos]

What hasn't been mentioned though is that the Qld Government had no choice but to ban parking around Suncorp. Paddington (where Suncorp is located) is one of the wealthiest suburbs in Brisbane and naturally the people were against the whole idea of redevelopment in the first place. The Paddingtonites were trying to block the redevelopment mainly because they thought the noise would be too loud and a bit of congestion would ruin their property values. As a result, the government had no choice but to ban parking around the stadium.

[sevans]

I guess we differ in our interpretation of what is a good crowd. For a city bigger than Perth, with far better stadium facilities, the Broncos and Lions draw relatively poorly.

I was just posing the question as to whether that has much to do with how hard their respective grounds are to get to.

The Broncos average around 30 000 at Suncorp stadium, this is nearly double that of the NRLs average. Also when the Broncos played at the then known ANZ stadium I think we averaged around 20 000 - 25 000. Now I am pretty sure that that represents and increase of around 5 000 - 10 000 since the move to the new Suncorp Stadium. ANZ had plenty of busways, however it had ample parking for people who wanted to bring their car. Thus your point about having no parking will only decrease crowds is disproven.

The fact that we can still attract sell out crowds, which we do around 10 times a year (estimate), says that crowds are not detered by lack of parking. The thing that stands in Suncorps favour is that it is about a ten minute walk to the main city, or you can walk to Milton (train staion) and catch the train t Roma Street or other surrounding stations where you may have parked your car. There are two levels (I believe) of bus lanes under the stadium where buses leave by the dozen every minute or so.

It's like building a shopping centre with no carpark.

A stadium, believe it or not, is not a shopping centre. People go to the game to be entertained. Many people drive their car to a nearby trainstation and then catch the tran to the game. Yes building a shopping centre without car parks would be rediculous, but Suncorp has proven that you can have a stadium without carparks. Since moving to this new stadium our crowds have increased, not decreased.

[paul]

The Broncos average around 30 000 at Suncorp stadium, this is nearly double that of the NRLs average. Also when the Broncos played at the then known ANZ stadium I think we averaged around 20 000 - 25 000. Now I am pretty sure that that represents and increase of around 5 000 - 10 000 since the move to the new Suncorp Stadium.

The Broncos used to average in the mid 40'000's at QE2 before the SL War. Using the warped logic of some people here I guess you could say that they've lost 10'000 fans since moving to the new LP.

I should add that since moving to the redeveloped Lang Park their average has increased every season, which tends to indicate that people like the stadium and don't mind using PT to get there.