Last night I went to the 2nd Annual Ralph Robertson Memorial Lecture held at the Cricket NSW Training Centre Theatrette. See http://aflnswact.com.au/default.aspx?s= ... aid=109939

For two hours we heard about the history of Aussie Rules in Sydney. It was a fascinating night for a sport/history geek such as myself. I neevr realised how big Aussie Rules was in Sydney during the 1880s and 1900s. During the 1880s, there are reports of regular fixtures attracting crowds from 600 to 4000. Regular visits from Victorian clubs helped the code and the game was held in such high regard that Governors of NSW and other dignatries frequently attended matches. The Depression of the 1890s and the increased thuggery in the game at the time led to the sport being out of favour in the 1890s before a revival in 1903.

Like RL five years later, Victorian Rules was able to benefit out of an increasing "anti-RU administration," sentiment that swept Sydney. 80 schools were playing the game at this time when Sydney's population was 500,000. Among the first school to take up the game was St Ignatius Riverview, one of Sydney's most exclusive private schools, who only later went to RU.

One thing I really liked that was on display was a shield presented to Petersham Superior Public School for winning the Sydney schools challenge of 1905. As a reward, the VFL paid for the team to travel down to Melbourne to play Melbourne's primary school champions Albert Park, in the curtain raiser to the 1905 final. Petersham won and the Melbourne press accused them of being over age. The next year, Petersham did the same and the media blew up again!

Aussie Rules fell away when RL started to take hold. Later, some benefactors pulled out, including one that had granted the NSWAFL exclusive use of a ground in Botany and the local game never really recovered.

It was a top night and I look forward to next year's lecture. There was loads of memorabilia on display too. There isn't really anything similar in RL circles here. For that I'd have to go to the UK.

Damn - Wish I was there!!

Too pressed for time to add much now, but here's a site I've stumbled across on the same subject -

http://convictcreations.com/football/evolution.htm

Convict creations is a great site, needs to be updated though, i like the Collingwood song (re-written for 2002-2003 )

Pity NSW's seniors weren't up to scratch.

1908 in Sydney:

Norwood 2.3 8.6 12.8 13.9 (87)
New South Wales 1.2 1.3 1.3 2.6 (18 )

I see it another way yob.

SA beat NSW and NSW beat Victoria. Let's just say the Vics were 3rd best at their own game.

Anyway, just yesterday I say there is nothing here about Rugby League and then this turns up as a link on the NSWRL website.

http://www.sporthistory.org/TomBrocklect.htm

8 YEARS and I knew nothing about it!!! I've missed quite a few good ones. Well mark me down for this one.

First - love this stuff, Jeffles - including the rugby league history as well.

Keep in mind that Australian Football in Sydney ceased altogether in 1893 after being banned from enclosed grounds, and the league only reformed in 1903, whereas in Adelaide it was, of course, dominant throughout this period -
Extract from http://convictcreations.com/football/evolution.htm -
"... The working classes viewed Australian Rules as a fast, free flowing game invented by Australians for Australians. However such positive sentiments were not shared by the upper classes. These people "saw rugby as more than just a game; it was a symbol and reminder of their Englishness." They subsequently used their political contacts to have the NSWFA banned from Sydney's enclosed grounds. Without gate money to spend on promotional purposes or to pay players, the NSWFA collapsed in 1893.

Although football was down, it was not out. In February 1903, the code picked itself up and formed the New South Wales Football League (NSWFL). Clubs were initially established in Sydney, Paddington and the North Shore, and by the beginning of April there were eight more - Alexandria, Ashfield, Balmain, East Sydney, Newtown, Redfern, West Sydney and YMCA. ..."
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On a different track, I think this article also explains why Sydney eventually needs another AFL club, based in the Western suburbs of Sudney, with its different demographics than the Swans supporters, in order to again "redefine the code's image" in Sydney -

"...Although Rugby League became more popular than Australian Football, working class players continued to swap between the two with a South Sydney rover by the name of Jim Stiff being the most famous example. Jim was voted best player at the 1933 National Australian Football Carnival. Four years later, he was chosen to tour with the Australian Rugby League. As for Sydney sports fans ...there was little hostility to Australian Football. As late as 1930, there was still high-level discussions about unifying Australia's two professional football codes.

The standard of Sydney footy was quite a high standard right until the 70s. In 1972, the NSW team, which contained predominantly of players from the Sydney league, beat the VFL seconds by 77 points. There was also a deal of spectator popularity. Games were played on enclosed grounds with gates, turnstiles and brick grandstands. Home and away games weren't huge but grand finals were played in front of 12,000-strong crowds.

However, this goodwill all changed in 1982 when the South Melbourne Swans relocated to Sydney and became known as the Sydney Swans. As the public face of Australian Rules in Sydney, the club redefined the code's image. Instead of being seen as working class, Football became associated with chardonnay, ballet and yuppies. 105 years of Australian Rules in Sydney was wiped clean and instead League fans viewed the game as a recent Melbourne import. Local clubs folded or amalgamated, grounds were rationalised or demonlised. ... despite making some inroads in the affluent market, the Swans were still unable to penetrate Sydney's working-class psyche. ...

Hmm, interesting comments. I have heard from SFL diehards how the Swans entry into Sydney actually destroyed funding for their fund. I even heard from one fella that there was actually some sort of Tv coverage for the SFL pre-VFL.

I like to go and watch SFL matches when they are at Henson. I have no allegience (more on that later) so I just watch the play and clap good play for both teams. For some reason I am finding myself increasing disliking the East Coast Eagles; I wonder why!? ) The standard isn't bad at all. There aren't many ball ups and chip-kicking and flooding in defence are completely foreign.

BUT I CANNOT bond with any of the SFL teams any longer. They no longer represent an area or region. They are little more than small-time affiliates for AFL Clubs. And the AFL has encouraged this, saying that they would benefit from the expertise and influx of funds from their 'parent clubs'. St George (the Saints, who played in red & white) are now the Crows, Campbelltown (who were the Blues & were Carlton CFC logo guernseys) are now the Roos, North Shore were the Bears (now they are Bombers), Wests used to wear a distinctive WSFC guernsey. Now they wear Emirates airlines on their backs FFS. I'm waiting for Wollongong to shun the scarlet & white and wear Brisbane logos next. I mean Balmain Dockers WTF!

I go to an SFL game and have club officials come up to me saying they hope THEIR team defeats the Swans. Like what the fark is wrong with living in Sydney & identifying with the Swans. Or do the Swans have enough grass roots support in Sydney? Do they have enough players already from Sydney?

JF

This was not mentioned at all during the lecture and would be a complete oversight on the part of the speaker. He said that, "as far as I can gather" it was to do with thuggery and brawling. Could that be a rah rah fabrication as well? What he did mention about enclosed grounds was that the Sydney AFL were excluded from the SCG for a time but they played at a field in Moore Park opposite what is now the Bat and Ball Hotel on the cnr of Cleveland and South Dowling St and that they played many games at the Ablert Ground, a prominent 19th Century Sydney Stadium east of Redfern Oval.



This passage, and what JF says in reply, is consistent with what was said last week. It was almost taboo. The lecture's main thesis covered the period up until WW1, with brief a summation of the period afterwards. The way he spoke Aussie Rules held its own for a while and then, "we all know what happened in the late 1970s and 1980s," he muttered with a bit of disappointment in his voice.

The Rugby League connection runs quite deep. Even in the 1970s we had Ken Wilson, a player with the Sydney Naval AFC and a member of a family so deeply connected with Sydney AFL switch codes and become one of the great Newtown Jets halfbacks. Another thing the lecturer told me after his speech was that in the 1905 primary schools final I mentioned earlier, the stand out player for the runners up (Petersham defeated Double Bay) was Wally Messenger, brother of RL pioneer Dally Messenger. Wally continued to play Aussie Rules with honours, winning a trophy at the National Australian Football Carnival for the longest kick before representing Australia at Rugby League.

As I said earlier, guests were able to mingle with the speaker after the lecture. Among the items to view were bound volumes of the Sydney AFL program, also called Football Record from memory. The Grand Finals were played at Trumper Park in Paddington and crowds looked quite good in the photos I saw. I asked about Sydney Naval and other defunct Sydney AFL clubs. The speaker said, "Australian Football administration in NSW has a long history of f***ing up" (the similarities to RL run deeper than we think! ) The NSWAFL's insistence on having district football, eliminated clubs such as YMCA and Sydney Naval that could have had futures. YMCA in particular were a very strong club.

Many people at the lecture were speaking of the Sydney AFL today. The audience spoke with great affection about the old days. Implicit in this I think was a dissatisfaction with the loss of identity as clubs move to AFL affiliation that JF speaks of. I mean reall, the change of name, guernsey and colours are not necessary. Many also said that the Swans should be doing more to help the local comp such as plugging more games at the SCG on the big screen, in programmes, in club emails etc. "35,000 people go the the SCG every second weekend. They have some appreciation for the code. What do they do every other week? Let them know they can still watch this sport that they like." JF has spoken about this to me before and to hear it said again last week shows that there is a lot of discontent among Sydney AFL administrators and a disconnection between the Swans, the Sydney AFL clubs and AFLNSW.

Great posts, JF and Jeffles. I totally agree with your views about the totally unecessary loss of identity with clubs selling out to AFL club affiliation. That sort of thing really p1sses me off.

Certainly looks like it - Australian Football was seen as a less dangerous alternative to rugby union for the working class who couldn't afford to miss work due to injuries - unlike the upper classes for which it didn't matter. When in doubt, always go for the most probable explanation - so yet another rah rah plot is uncovered.

I'm too humble to say I told you so!

The lecturer owns a bookshop in Glebe. This thread is opening a lot of doors and I may have to visit him.

I think I am going to have to go to an East Coast Eagles game, just to see if its much like the West Coast Eagles fan base at games

Bloody likely. The rise of the ECE mirrors the progress of the Swans suggesting they are a club whose story most reflects the Sydney Swans set that like the kulchaaaaa more than the sport itself.

As long as I am able to sing the club song, talk loudly, actively cheer them on...It will be nothing like Premium Section Eagles tickets that I have sat in before...

Someone should show this thread to the dunderheads on SFCU who think Aussie rules only started in Sydney in 1982.

I think Egan would love the ECE considering it is a Hills District club.

Nah, not a fan of Hillsong...

They really love it when I bring up AFL on that forum...

I don't think I will touch that one...although JF might be wise to do so