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Wally
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Post by Wally »

AndrewM wrote:
swede wrote:
Egan wrote: Yokohama would be the obvious choice. Hopefully the next Rugby Union World Cup is held in Japan...
Far too risky with likely poor crowds. the football world cup 2002 had many poor crowds. would rugby really do better?

I would say Italy, centred in the north, right next to the french rugby heartland. Its both safe and expansionist and with Juventus new stadium as well as genoa and the san siro in Milan the venues should be there.

some games could possibly be taken over the border to France or even northern Spain or Switzerland, which has already seen european cup rugby
The one good reason for NZ getting the 2011 RWC is it that it will get the financial reward it deserves for maintaining the best brand in Rugby - the All Blacks, something the NH nations have reaped the benefit from for years and returned the favour by sending south their second rate teams.
Mate the 2011 World Cup looks like it might be the first in history to come up in the red for the host country.

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Egan
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Post by Egan »

What's this?

Serious Rugby talk on austadiums.

Good stuff 8)

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IanRitchie
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Post by IanRitchie »

Egan wrote:What's this?

Serious Rugby talk on austadiums.
problem, meet solution.


Image



uuuh, how do we think the french will go this year?

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Egan
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Post by Egan »

The girlfriend approves of the above posts :wink:

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IanRitchie
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Post by IanRitchie »

Egan wrote:The girlfriend approves of the above posts :wink:
if not the content, definitely the intent.

swede
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Post by swede »

AndrewM wrote:
swede wrote:
Egan wrote: Yokohama would be the obvious choice. Hopefully the next Rugby Union World Cup is held in Japan...
Far too risky with likely poor crowds. the football world cup 2002 had many poor crowds. would rugby really do better?

I would say Italy, centred in the north, right next to the french rugby heartland. Its both safe and expansionist and with Juventus new stadium as well as genoa and the san siro in Milan the venues should be there.

some games could possibly be taken over the border to France or even northern Spain or Switzerland, which has already seen european cup rugby
Your true colours are coming through Swede. Rugby needs to expand outside its traditional strongholds - and no, the traditional rules aren't going to do that either. Just look at the state of international rugby league. I was against NZ getting the RWC in 2011, France in 2007 and even Australia in 2003 (even though I went to all the Pool games held in Perth). Give it to the unions that need the world cup to help springboard into being truly competitive international teams, especially those that don't have the access to the competitive blocks such as six nations or tri nations. Like the USA and Canada, Argentina and Urguay and Japan. They need it, we (ie the SANZAR and six-nations countries) don't.

The one good reason for NZ getting the 2011 RWC is it that it will get the financial reward it deserves for maintaining the best brand in Rugby - the All Blacks, something the NH nations have reaped the benefit from for years and returned the favour by sending south their second rate teams.
Expand, yes. Within reason. If Japan could provide financial guarantees and present a case for how reasonable attendances will be achieved, then fine. I just dont think they can, and poor crowds will devalue the brand rather than expand anything.
Italy may be member of the sixnations but rugby is not yet a major sport there. but its growing and a world cup would make a real difference while at the same time be profitable because of the geography, timezones and available stadiums. Is it not expansion if its in europe?

For who´s sake do you want to change the rules? Where is the evidence, that a dumbed-down version would do any good, especially as crowds are dropping in the places that adopted all the ELVs but growing elsewhere.

As for NZ being exploited by the north, thats just nonsense. November tests are increasingly played on a profit-sharing basis, which is why NZ want to come to Twickenham every year.

Sure, the june tests are crap, but nothing can be done about that, they should just be ditched.
It seems you under-estimate the fast-growing influence of the club game.
Here are two crowds from the stade de france in paris this season.
November: France v Australia, att: 70,000
last week : St. Francais v Clermont, att: 79,000

Rugby is not football just yet, but its going that way. Soon internationals outside of tournaments will be of little more interest than a football friendly and nothing to base the game around.

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Egan
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Post by Egan »

That maybe true in Europe Swede, but the Australian context this is not happening. Super 14 crowds are becoming less popular across the continent. Canberra, Perth, Sydney and Brisbane are all facing decreasing crowds, not just Perth as some of the ALF supporters like to brag about....

Is it a case of two different rugby worlds between Europe and the Southern Hemisphere, not just the style of Rugby?

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Post by Jeffles »

swede wrote:For who´s sake do you want to change the rules? Where is the evidence, that a dumbed-down version would do any good, especially as crowds are dropping in the places that adopted all the ELVs but growing elsewhere.
I don't think the ELVs have led to the drop in crowds. The ELVs, at least in Australia, were a response to the declining interest in the game since the inflated hype of RUWC 2003 and they have not been able to arrest the decline that has been evident since before the ELVs were introduced.

The ARU was right to think that people in Australia want to see more time where the ball in play and more instances of the crowd being able to see the ball. That's probably why RU is a distant 4th of the four Australian football codes.

But if the sport doesnt go with it, they need to play within the rules set down by the administrators. If the IRB doesn't want to adopt them then good luck to them. As you say, the code is doing well in many parts of the world.

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Post by AndrewM »

Sure, the june tests are crap, but nothing can be done about that, they should just be ditched.
Are you saying Swede that supporters in SH nations shouldn't be given the pleasure of watching live the 'best' that the NH teams have to offer (ie the June tours when NH teams traditionally do SH tours) or are you saying we should just have one window with teams going both north and south?
As for NZ being exploited by the north, thats just nonsense. November tests are increasingly played on a profit-sharing basis, which is why NZ want to come to Twickenham every year.
true, things have changed, but this is a relatively recent development, and not all tests seem to be arranged this way. Like the 4th Bledisoe Cup match, they seem to be done just for the money and are possibly not in the best interest of the game longer term

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Post by swede »

Egan wrote:That maybe true in Europe Swede, but the Australian context this is not happening. Super 14 crowds are becoming less popular across the continent. Canberra, Perth, Sydney and Brisbane are all facing decreasing crowds, not just Perth as some of the ALF supporters like to brag about....

Is it a case of two different rugby worlds between Europe and the Southern Hemisphere, not just the style of Rugby?

but its the second year of the new rules in the south, so shouldnt they have begun to at least slow down dwindling crowds if they were any kind of solution?

But I agree, its probably not the main reason. The structure in the south has always seemed odd to me with several layers of pro-rugby all offering so many games of little or no relevance.

Why not ditch the whole super-rugby. Return to national the championships (Aus could use their super-teams and perhaps add a few)
There would be national "derbies" and everything to play for as there would be both national finals as well as a Sanzar play-off and possibly even relegation, at least in SA.

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Post by swede »

Jeffles wrote:
swede wrote:For who´s sake do you want to change the rules? Where is the evidence, that a dumbed-down version would do any good, especially as crowds are dropping in the places that adopted all the ELVs but growing elsewhere.
I don't think the ELVs have led to the drop in crowds. The ELVs, at least in Australia, were a response to the declining interest in the game since the inflated hype of RUWC 2003 and they have not been able to arrest the decline that has been evident since before the ELVs were introduced.

The ARU was right to think that people in Australia want to see more time where the ball in play and more instances of the crowd being able to see the ball. That's probably why RU is a distant 4th of the four Australian football codes.

But if the sport doesnt go with it, they need to play within the rules set down by the administrators. If the IRB doesn't want to adopt them then good luck to them. As you say, the code is doing well in many parts of the world.
But if 03 was all hype then its hardly realistic to expect to maintain it by rule changes.

If the need for the ball to be in play more is so crucial, then the NFL or baseball should be walking disasters in the US. The ELVs have probably meant the ball is in play more, but it has generally led to more pointless play and a loss of structure, certainly in the north where I think most peoples impression is that it leads to more aimless kicking back and forth.

If Australia prefer an RL-style of rugby, then thats fine but as that game already exists there is hardly any reason to try and pull rugby in the same direction.

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Egan
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Post by Egan »

Probably because the corporate interest in the framework of the Super 14 and sponsors being seen in markets such as New Zealand, Australia and South Africa makes it a lot more desirable.

Plus the ARC died in the ass last year. Union is going through a rebuilding phase, was conservative other then deliveri ng the force a license to compete in the Super 14.

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Post by swede »

AndrewM wrote:
Sure, the june tests are crap, but nothing can be done about that, they should just be ditched.
Are you saying Swede that supporters in SH nations shouldn't be given the pleasure of watching live the 'best' that the NH teams have to offer (ie the June tours when NH teams traditionally do SH tours) or are you saying we should just have one window with teams going both north and south?
As for NZ being exploited by the north, thats just nonsense. November tests are increasingly played on a profit-sharing basis, which is why NZ want to come to Twickenham every year.
true, things have changed, but this is a relatively recent development, and not all tests seem to be arranged this way. Like the 4th Bledisoe Cup match, they seem to be done just for the money and are possibly not in the best interest of the game longer term
I am saying, what you ask for is impossible. If such games were to be played properly it would require serious extra compensation to at least the 26 top clubs in England and France alone, and for what? Financially worthless games, which I doubt that many supporters in the south are really that keen on.

The south should rather focus on developing a structure that includes Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. Three massively under-estimated islands full of talent and also serious potential as financially valuable brands in the longer term. And they can compete. Fiji knocked Wales out of the last world cup and tied with South Africa well into the second half, probably coming closer than any to knock out the eventual champions.

Relistically yes, I mean november games in the north only. Essentially its what the south want as well for financial reasons. Especially NZ seem focused on ever longer world tours, no doubt to help fund the costs of their rugby structure.

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Post by gyfox »

swede wrote:
Egan wrote: But I agree, its probably not the main reason. The structure in the south has always seemed odd to me with several layers of pro-rugby all offering so many games of little or no relevance.

Why not ditch the whole super-rugby. Return to national the championships (Aus could use their super-teams and perhaps add a few)
That would kill Rugby in Australia. Rugby is played mainly in NSW and QLD and the Brunbies and the Force rely fairly heavily on "borrowing" players from these states. If you brought say Victoria and South Australia in all you would do is weaken the standard of competition and have even smaller crowds.

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Post by swede »

Egan wrote:Probably because the corporate interest in the framework of the Super 14 and sponsors being seen in markets such as New Zealand, Australia and South Africa makes it a lot more desirable.

Plus the ARC died in the ass last year. Union is going through a rebuilding phase, was conservative other then deliveri ng the force a license to compete in the Super 14.
but it died five minutes after it was invented because of a lack of available long term funding, didnt it? perhaps because all the money was used on sending many large squads to south africa for weeks on end to play games for 10th place in the middle of the night..

I may be wrong but I just find it hard to believe that for instance a six-team australian championship using the "super" teams (and two more) wouldnt be more profitable than the super14 setup, especially with a knock-out sanzar play-off on top.

corporate interest shouldnt force short-term planning.

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