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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:09 pm 
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Egan wrote:
Gyfox, the underlying issue is you think the FFA have a huge influence over state governments and that the FFA can demand anything it likes.

That is the ideological difference that sprouts our debates and thus there is no point continuing. Because I think State Governments know the FFA have very little leverdge.

Say no to any potential upgrade because its not a perfect rectangular stadium...they sacrifice their ability to even host the World Cup, if the Queensland Government believe that their taxpayer dollars would be more worthwhile being spent on a venue that could bring both a Commonwealth Games and a World Cup...rather then just a World Cup.

At the end of the day its governments thinking about the best return for their taxpayers...it may well be that Carrara is that, simply because of their desires to host a Commonwealth Games on the coast as well as the World Cup...
I don't think you understand that it is the FFA that is the only entity that can bid for the World Cup. The states can't bid and to have their venues in the bid they must satisfy the FFA. If they don't want to have venues that meet FIFA requirements that is OK, but the consequence will be that they won't be part of the bid. This may mean FFA don't bid if we don't have acceptable venues. It would be better not to bid than to face the humiliation in the football world we would receive if we offered the likes of a spruced up Subiaco or AAMI or AdelaideOval or Cararra Oval.

It may well be that Qld will decide that they want to invest more in Cararra but it will not be a World Cup venue unless that investment includes being able to turn the ground into a rectangular stadium for the World Cup. If you have a look at the Carrara images you will find the fault in your argument. It is an oval with no attempt made in the design to be anything but an oval and to go on about me rejecting anything that is not a perfect rectangle is an absolute and utter nonsense on your part.

FIFA is the one with the whip hand in all of this. Unless suitable venues are included in a bid then a bid will not succeed and FIFA has already gone into print and said that any new venues must be fully compliant with their requirements. Large format ovals do not comply so it is a waste of time submitting them unless there is a strong argument for it as may be the case with the MCG. You can rest assured that Australia would be the only bidder that won't be offering compliant venues so we will lose if we put large format ovals forward.

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Last edited by gyfox on Fri May 08, 2009 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:24 pm 
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don't think you understand that it is the FFA that is the only entity that can bid for the World Cup. The states, if they want to be part of it have to fall into line with what they want. If they don't want to fall in line that is OK, but the consequence will be that they won't be part of the bid. The states and Feds have the money but they do not bid!


I don't think you understand that it is Taxpayers dollars going into the bid. Some of those taxpayers hate soccer, some of those hate sport altogether.

As Bligh has found, in QLD they are sick of infrastructure being spent on stadia. They will have to be very careful on how they spend taxpayers dollars.

The FFA will have to accept Carrara if they want a World Cup and they want a venue for over 40,000, if that is the way the QLD Government are looking at it.

They can't simply have a hissy fit and put No Go Zones around every city that doesn't have every venue rectangular...



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The states and Feds have the money but they do not bid!


And at the moment the FFA have got two states that don't give a stuff about the World Cup and will suggest that any redevelopment has to be at Robina. That the QLD Government has no choice with which venue it redevelops, even if it is not the best use of taxpayers dollars.

Sorry sometimes the money that feeds you has to be listened too. And the FFA aren't suggesting they are paying for the venues, so they have to understand they have to be very tolerant if Rudd is giving them no money for stadia. And if QLD decides that the Gold Coast will have a 40,000+ venue...then it is within their right to suggest to the FFA, it is in our states best interest to redevelop Carrara over Robina. Sorry if this dissapoints you, but we know you need the Gold Coast in any World Cup bid.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:19 pm 
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Egan wrote:
Quote:
don't think you understand that it is the FFA that is the only entity that can bid for the World Cup. The states, if they want to be part of it have to fall into line with what they want. If they don't want to fall in line that is OK, but the consequence will be that they won't be part of the bid. The states and Feds have the money but they do not bid!


I don't think you understand that it is Taxpayers dollars going into the bid. Some of those taxpayers hate soccer, some of those hate sport altogether. I certainly do understand that it is taxpayers money and that it has to be spent wisely. That is why I am suggesting that if Qld are wanting to spend taxpayers money so that they have another venue suitable for use at a World Cup then it is sensible that they spend it on Skilled because it would cost them too much to bring Cararra to World Cup standard. If however, Qld wants to spend money on Cararra to increase its capacity for AFL, to be a better cricket venue or to bring it to Commonwealth Games standard that is a completely different issue and it would be a great investment.

As Bligh has found, in QLD they are sick of infrastructure being spent on stadia. They will have to be very careful on how they spend taxpayers dollars.

The FFA will have to accept Carrara if they want a World Cup and they want a venue for over 40,000, if that is the way the QLD Government are looking at it. In my view they would be stupid to put Cararra in the bid if it wasn't able to be morphed into a "rectangular" venue like say the Perth proposal. They know it wouldn't be accepted by FIFA. I think you need to accept that what FIFA wants it gets. There are plenty of other countries bidding and there will not be one stadium in all their bids that has a ground area anywhere near as big as Cararra.

They can't simply have a hissy fit and put No Go Zones around every city that doesn't have every venue rectangular... Of course they can. The event that they are putting a bid in for is the FIFA World Cup and the venues that are used for the event are required to be world class for football.



Quote:
The states and Feds have the money but they do not bid!


And at the moment the FFA have got two states that don't give a stuff about the World Cup and will suggest that any redevelopment has to be at Robina. That the QLD Government has no choice with which venue it redevelops, even if it is not the best use of taxpayers dollars. There are 3 states that don't give a stuff. Tasmania has been stupid enough to put Aurora forward and needs to be included in the number that don't give a stuff. The FFA has done an audit of all venues put forward and is going to talk to each state about their venues and what would be needed to include them in a bid. When they talk to Qld about Skilled they will detail its need to have increased capacity and all the other upgrades that are needed to make it suitable. The Qld Government will no doubt analyse this and decide if it wants to commit any funds to the development. If they don't then Skilled will be dropped from the list. The process is pretty simple really and only venues that meet the requirements for the World Cup will be included in the bid by the FFA.

Sorry sometimes the money that feeds you has to be listened too. And the FFA aren't suggesting they are paying for the venues, so they have to understand they have to be very tolerant if Rudd is giving them no money for stadia. And if QLD decides that the Gold Coast will have a 40,000+ venue...then it is within their right to suggest to the FFA, it is in our states best interest to redevelop Carrara over Robina. Sorry if this dissapoints you, but we know you need the Gold Coast in any World Cup bid. In the scenario you put forward if Qld put Carrara forward it will go through exactly the same process as every other stadium.

I think you need to understand that with FIFA it is OK to put a good bid forward and miss out, it might even put you in good stead for a future bid, but to put a sub standard bid will be held against the you for a long time. Better to bow out early than to be balloted out early in the selection process.


PS. If the design for Cararra was modified now to allow for morphing to a rectangular stadium then you are talking about $25M for the hinges and maybe another $5-10M for the hydraulics.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:21 pm 
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Getting back on topic... I quite like the Carrara design. It seems very suitable for a warm climate.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:50 pm 
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And as I have said before, why the hell have we bidded when we have so many states not seeing it in their interest to spend money on stadia?

It has already been proven that WA and SA are not building a venue for the World Cup. Bligh has political pressure to not spend anymore on stadia.

Where are these people that suggest our World Cup bid is going well...

The stadia situation as I am seeing it will be very hard to challenge in a few states. At the moment we don't even have states commiting to venues for 10 years down the track...

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:53 pm 
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Egan wrote:
And as I have said before, why the hell have we bidded when we have so many states not seeing it in their interest to spend money on stadia?

It has already been proven that WA and SA are not building a venue for the World Cup. Bligh has political pressure to not spend anymore on stadia.

Where are these people that suggest our World Cup bid is going well...
Do we know the political posturing or do we know the real situation?

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 8:56 pm 
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Its the reality unless Rudd spends a whole heap of money on venues...

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:00 pm 
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Egan wrote:
Its the reality unless Rudd spends a whole heap of money on venues...
Don't hold your breath for it on Tuesday night.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Shows what a waste of money that 47 million dollars was...

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:28 pm 
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Egan wrote:
Shows what a waste of money that 47 million dollars was...
We don't know that yet. Although no money will be forthcoming this budget there has been a fair bit leaking to stadiums from Rudd so it is up there as a priority. We don't need stadiums til 2022 so there is plenty of time.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 9:39 pm 
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Buckley gave Adelaide the deadline of the end of the year...

Heard nothing that Buckley has changed his mind...

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:49 pm 
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Egan wrote:
Buckley gave Adelaide the deadline of the end of the year...

Heard nothing that Buckley has changed his mind...
They have to submit their bid in December I think and it does need concrete proposals including guaranteed finances so you are right... we don't have much time.

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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 11:35 pm 
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No offence intended, but can we piss the World Cup talk off to another thread please. It's like a freaking virus at times.

Also the Carrara thread is a good one for all this upgrade info. :wink:
http://www.austadiums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2654


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 1:15 am 
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Fair comment, beastjim!

I was fascinated by the verbals between Egan & gyfox. I agree with gyfx that any WC game should be played at Robina rather than Carrara. And also with Egan that taxpayers $$ will not be lavished on soccer stadiums that will be 1/2 empty after any WC, as significant as it is.

Thanks for the Carrara link...I wasn't aware of it


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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 2:14 am 
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nobleoz wrote:
Fair comment, beastjim!

I was fascinated by the verbals between Egan & gyfox. I agree with gyfx that any WC game should be played at Robina rather than Carrara. And also with Egan that taxpayers $$ will not be lavished on soccer stadiums that will be 1/2 empty after any WC, as significant as it is.
Thanks for the Carrara link...I wasn't aware of it


I didn't say anything about that. The NRL team has more chance of filling 40,000 regularly compared to the AFL.

What I was suggesting is the Gold Coast's bid for the Commonwealth Games would impact on the choice between Robina and Carrara.

Will try and keep World Cup talk on the one thread. But austadiums is famous for threads changing from the original topic.

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